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1. It would be interesting to poll the 30-something crowd on this too!

   You’re right, it pretty much overlaps with the “decent human being” category, plus a penis.

   
   — Octogalore    Apr 2, 04:34 PM    #

2. Interesting . . . and surprisingly . . . deep. But I’m drunk, so don’t go by me.

   
   — Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Apr 2, 07:23 PM    #

3. I actually blogged about this once. Here’s my two cents. I’d type it over, but I’m too tired from cutting the grass and taking out the trash:

   http://omnipotentpoobah.blogspot.com/2005/12/on-being-man.html

   
   — Omnipotent Poobah    Apr 2, 08:14 PM    #

4. All those comments seem to be tied into the idea of man as provider – get a job, pay your bills, don’t be a bum. What I wonder is if they really see those as man-specific qualities (ie qualities women don’t have) or as qualities associated with adulthood.

   
   — CassandraSays    Apr 2, 11:00 PM    #

5. Mr. Evolution left his two cents on this one over and Antiprincesses place.

   The man is not right.

   
   — RenegadeEvolution    Apr 3, 09:52 AM    #

6. Cassandra—to tell you the truth, with this particular group of people I think “responsibility” came immediately to mind because they didn’t expect it out of grown men. The only one that had a dad that wasn’t a pathetic waste of flesh was Will. There are two fathers flat out dissappeared, one that cheated on his wife and then got all self-righteous about it, one that beat his wife and later knocked around the son in question, and one "franchisee."

   I really don’t think the comments were a reaction to what qualities they thought women had, so much as a reaction to what qualities the men in their lives had lacked.

   
   — Veronica    Apr 3, 10:41 AM    #

7. A man is an adult male. But it’s funny how the male stereotype is so insidious that people perpetuate it without a second thought. I don’t think that I should have to make a six figure salary, support seven children or bench press a Geo to prove my manhood. I also don’t think my penis compels me into responsibility, sensitivity, or maturity. I may have those qualities, but I’m not giving credit to my nads.

   
   — Josh    Apr 3, 01:55 PM    #

8. V – That makes perfect sense, actually. I have a Dad who is all of those things, so I kind of take them as a given, as the baseline so to speak, but for someone who grew up without them those qualities would assume a status as something to strive for.
   Interestingly enough I had a mother who had much the same qualities.

   
   — CassandraSays    Apr 3, 02:57 PM    #

9. Gee, Josh, way to ignore the subtext of the question at hand! Literalism that ignores the historical significance of rights of passage in achieving maturity RAWKS!

   We certainly won’t be giving credit for sensitivity to your nads this time around!

   
   — Veronica    Apr 3, 03:29 PM    #

10. Sorry. I forgot that everything done historically is best. I suppose that there aren’t any young men who think they have to kill something to be a man, and even if they do, it’s okay because tradition condones it. Too bad about all of those young men who don’t fit the image that they have received from our culture about manhood…they probably won’t take all of those measures literally and feel lacking and alienated. Heck, today we even have people who try to fight against the negative effects of stereotypes…oops, they only fight for women’s rights. Well, as the women of the world are starving themselves to fit an unreasonable ideal image, the men of the world will be bottling up all of those feelings and desperately searching for someway to get rich without breaking the law…they’ll make the perfect couple. It’s okay though, those young men are in a great position to learn life’s most important lesson…being an adult is about tolerating your own hypocrisy and not pointing out the hypocrisy of those around you.

    PS Your post wasn’t about the history of rites of passage, it is presented as an psuedo-evaluation of modern thinking. And your rude brush off of my comment is just you backpedalling. But, historically speaking, I don’t know that I was expecting anything different…I obviously don’t have the right kind of opinion to post here. Well, ...fuck you. I’ll just leave you to your yes-women and intellectual sycophants.

    
    — Josh    Apr 3, 04:27 PM    #

11. Rude brush off?

    You only showed up to say the conversation is pointless. You, in fact, usually only show up to be dismissive.

    Well, congrats to you. You don’t think it’s worth discussion. “A man is an adult male.” End of story. And, we’re all a bunch of idiotic sycophants for considering it worthy of discussion.

    
    — Veronica    Apr 3, 04:35 PM    #

12. Shorter Josh – Why can’t everyone acknowledge the devestating relevance and importance of my random drive-by babbling? Veronica is an evil castrating bitch, and so are all of her friends. I’m taking my toys and going home! Just try to stop me!
    God dammit why is no one trying to stop me?

    PS Girl are mean.

    
    — CassandraSays    Apr 3, 06:23 PM    #

13. I know him IRL, so it’s not as drive-by as it looks.

    Sort of.

    He does only show up when he disagrees, though. I don’t do that to him. So, yeah, it’s a little annoying.

    I told him in person I didn’t mind him dissenting, but I wasn’t aware I was obligated to take snide hyperbole seriously.

    
    — Veronica    Apr 3, 06:35 PM    #

14. I know for a fact that Josh read your blog every day, and has not commented every time. Which implies he is not the simmering nay say machine you seem to be implying that he is. One might even surmise that his reading of your blog might indicate some level of enjoyment he had at reviewing your view point on the subject matter ccntained therein. Your question was answered, and while you apparently disagreed with that, you could not do so in a matter that wasn’t at first snide. Which seemed the case before his return post. Cassandra, you are a perfect example of the flaw inherent in Veronica’s comment section. You adress someone’s comments as “drive by babbling”, and ironically contributed very little appreciable new content to the thread by doing so. That of course comes off as rather rude in itself I’m sure, which brings me to my point (Shorter Dave, if you please): If the people here disagree with anything put forth, the general thread becmes rudeness. It isn’t even constructive most of the time. Disagreeing with someoe’s viewpoint is not the same as belittling it.

    
    — David    Apr 4, 12:25 AM    #

15. wowee, Josh – project much?

    
    — antiprincess    Apr 4, 08:22 AM    #

16. Dave—he’s left a whole ONE comment here that wasn’t negative and dismissive… back in August about how he thought Justin Timberlake was hot. And, actually, I had stated that I didn't think Timberlake was hot--so he was still only commenting to be contrary (heh.).

    It’s like he can’t comment here without acting like I, and everyone else that comments, is some sort brain dead Zombified idiot whom he must set straight, so, yeah, he’s gonna get a negative response. It's rude. And, the longer he keeps it up, the ruder it's going to seem.

    No one here is obligated to smile and nod. No one here is obligated to give his thoughts heavy consideration, to engage him in debate about something pointless, or to listen to him at all. And, no one here is intimidated by his vocabulary, or will defer to the confidence in his speaking tone, or the grades he had in high school, or his supposed IQ scores.

    In other words, this isn't your living room.

    No one in the post, or the thread said anything about, "a six figure salary," supporting seven children, or benching a Geo. That's hyperbole. There was already conversation in the post and the thread about how maturity, sensitivity, etc, are human traits that adults of either gender should have. But, he ignored that and acted like he was saving us all from our own stereotyping and stupidity. That's arrogant and snide.

    He got snide in return. If he can't handle it, he should get a fucking helmet. And, tell him not to worry. I won't be coming back to have him lecture me at length about how smart he thinks he is. I'm not sure when I (and my big, bad EVIL website) became such a terrible threat to his fragile ego, but good luck to him in all his future endeavors. I'm about sick of this. He wants to end a 9 year friendship over a blog comment... more power to him. And, if he's got other issues with me, then maybe he should have taken those specific issues up with me personally, instead of playing this bullshit internet game.

    
    — Veronica    Apr 4, 12:27 PM    #

17. I would tend to agree with that general definition with the exception that a man doesn’t have to have his own family. But I also think, as with anything, it’s a fluid thing. I know some men who at times behave like total boys and some boys who, when needed, step up and are “men.” Ditto for me. A woman to me is someone who is self-assured, responsible, intelligent, caring, compassionate, respectful etc. I am all of those things but I’m also (willingly) silly as shit. Because of that, I think of myself as a girl and don’t see anything wrong, bad or disrespectful about attaching that label to myself. It’s a matter of mood and not entirely linear. Flexibility, as we like to say in the blogworld, rocks.

    
    — patricia    Apr 4, 01:07 PM    #

18. “It would be interesting to poll the 30-something crowd on this too!”

    Here’s one!

    “The Real Man is the father everyone wishes that they’d had…”

    It took me a year of therapy to figure this out. Where were you when I needed you? I could have saved a lot of money. :)

    Seriously tho, I do fit the bill here: my father disappeared before I was even born. Never seen him. And from what my moms tells me about him, I’d rather not ever see him because I’d like to stay out of jail. Stepdad was a complete waste of flesh. I was happy when my moms divorced him, which is fucked up when you think about it. My grandad, who I’ve also never met and who wouldn’t come to see me at my mom’s behest also bailed soon after I was born. So it makes a lot of sense to me that so many dudes, having grown up in similar situations would respond with “responsibility” as a key part of being a real man. I would have replied, “don’t be a jackass” myself, but that’s just my way of saying some of the same shit other dudes have said.

    I, for one, am glad you addressed this because like I mentioned above, it’s a topic that I’ve struggled with a lot.

    
    — Kevin    Apr 4, 01:46 PM    #

19. “Don’t be a jackass” is acceptable.

    In therapeutic terms, I’m quite fond of “Grow the fuck up, you big baby.”

    
    — Veronica    Apr 4, 01:54 PM    #

20. Wow. I read the whole thing and maybe I’m wrong, but it sounded to me like Josh was agreeing with you in that those “man” qualities didn’t necessarily go hand in hand with being male (ie having a penis). I thought his contribution of the idea of the male stereotype was very apt given the discussion at hand, especially given the fact that he’s gay. That could have opened up a whole different aspect to the discussion. Is the male steretype exclusive to hetero males? To “western” males? Is a man of your description still considered a man if he is a part of a “primitive” tribe in New Guinea? I know there are some societies in which the traditional role of male provider/female caretaker are reversed. Are these people “real” men? Just a thought.

    
    — rovinganth    Apr 5, 11:37 AM    #

21. I thought Clint was Crowduseus, from Crowdus street in Deep Ellum. How nerdy to remember

    
    — Sam    Apr 8, 06:58 PM    #

22. It was Will on Clint’s machine.

    
    — Veronica    Apr 8, 07:05 PM    #

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