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White Lady Pity Party

Ya know, I am well aware that there are Folks That Don’t Get It. And, as I know that they Just Don’t Get It, I should leave them alone. Don’t poke a badger with a stick, as it were, all you’ll do is piss off the badger and look like a person that pokes badgers when they should know better.

However… I just can’t help myself when it comes to Heart. I’m just… in awe of how fully she doesn’t get it. I mean… just… wow. WOW.

Apparently, she thinks that all the folks that stand around gaping in amazement at her total cluelessness are attacking her for “Race Traitorism,” mostly because she assumes her “Race Traitoring” qualifies her for a Special White Lady Badge, which makes her Double Extra Oppressed, and then All the Oppressed Women of the World will weep Sisterly Tears of Uterine Sorrow with her. It never occurs to her that perhaps it’s the crazy shit she says that evokes the responses she gets. I, for one, wonder how she manages to get herself back and forth from the grocery store with the weight of that White Lady’s Burden bearing down on her alabaster shoulders.

It’s gotta be hard.

Anyway, this one started at ChasingMoksha’s blog. Apparently, someone told Moksha that she’s not allowed to speak for her Black husband. I’m not sure what that’s all about, as Moksha refused to link it… not a good sign if you’re attempting to rally support, but whatever. We’ve got no idea what Moksha actually said on her husband’s behalf. But, she’d like us to believe that it was “stories of his oppression.” There’s some anger over agency negation, which doesn’t really work with the way I define agency, but that might just be that I’ve got the wrong definition. Whatever the case, someone pissed Moksha off.

Thus begins the White Lady Pity Party.

See, Heart (and most of her commenters) seem to be under the impression that if someone disagrees with an idea, that the disagreeing person is just trying to “silence” others. I’m not sure how, “Yo, that’s fucked up,” gets translated into “I, using my tremendous pull with the FCC, will pull the plug on your blog, then have fingers clipped off, your eyes removed, and your tongue ripped out with a spoon by a big, scary Enforcer of the Patriarchy,” but, somehow, it repeatedly happens.

Any criticism of Heart or Heart’s buddies is “silencing,” doncha know? I am silencing them right now using psychic mind rays powered on Patriarchy Magic.

Anyway, Heart jumps right into her important anti-racism work and righteously radical theorizing by mocking gays, lesbians, queers, transexuals, and people of color in Moksha’s comments.

Over on bfp’s or somebody’s site a short while ago there was mention of a carnival of some kind, I think about coming up as a person of color. And then the invite went out also to all people who were “LBGT” to participate, presumably even if they are white.

Analyze that. If you are white but LBGT you may join the discussion of growing up a person of color. BUT. If I were to join that discussion, I guarantee you I would get frozen out straight up or eventually because of my views about the T in LBGT, not to mention, what is it about lbgt which would makes any of the white lbgt people relevant to a discussion of growing up a person of color? And you aren’t invited to that discussion straight up, cm, which is just wrong. The alliance is between this nebulous LBGTQRSTUVWXYZ and “persons of color” iow, but what that means is, someone like Amp—basically a het white man (with racist porn on his site)—may pontificate on and on about race because for some reason he calls himself “Q” or someone included int he LBGT thing because they are, newest letter, what is it, “seeking” or “interested” or something like that, but someone with decades of actual life amongst people of color, vested in their lives, like you say, with a stake in, is supposed to sit by and what, listen to clueless white people pontificate cluelessly on.

Now, amusingly enough, the discussion at BFP’s was about where being a POC and being LBGT intersect. But, of course, in order to comprehend that, Heart would have had to read and pay attention to someone that isn’t handing out Special Cookies to Self-Described “Race Traitors,” which doesn’t fit well with being a perpetually offended and eternally self-absorbed.

Anyway, it gets better!

It’s really a shunning. It is a shunning of people who have, in real life ways, transgressed the boundaries of race, have paid for it, learned from it.

Most frustrating, like you say, cm, is being reminded of the responsibility to do anti-racism work then shouted down when you actually begin to do it because you aren’t saying what someone wants you to say or for no reason at all.

See… it’s all about Heart, and Heart’s Beautiful Sacrifices for the Anti-Racism Cause. It doesn’t have anything to do with her flat out contempt for people that are, as she put it, “LBGTQRSTUVWXYZ,” and surely it can’t possibly be because she might as well make up a shirt that says, “I hate WOC who won’t give me my DUE as a Put Upon White Lady, because damn it, I am owed special consideration.”

Oh, no.

That couldn’t have anything to do with how folks react to her. Nope. It’s all just “reverse racism” “Race Traitorism.”

Anyway, CM and Heart get themselves worked up into a real pityfest. Then the fun moves to Heart’s blog, where it amps up considerably.

Moksha starts:

I am thinking somehow the white woman is hated by ALL including white men. And it is expressed through black men when we decided to marry them. I say marry vs sexed because there are enough media archetypes of the sexed black man. However, it seems the married black man to white woman is only allowed to be Clarence Thomas or O.J. Simpson. And it is because he is seen as Clarence Thomas or O.J. Simpson, that the perception of that white woman is formed. She is hated because she not out of her own agency is deemed the standard of beauty, yet she is hated because she has privilege and she is hated if she ever tries to take on the role as “savior.” Because of patriarchy’s plot to make her the standard of beauty she is hated, yet other than white woman (WOC) is objectified and raped as well. But still the mass, the objectified WOC and white men seem to be working together (consciously or not) to focus their hatred and cause of all woes on the white woman. As you can tell I am trying to work this all out. Because I do believe in theories like the white woman wanting all the attention but I also believe that is not a picture of ALL white women and should not be allowed to go unchecked.

Words fail, don’t they?

I mean… I don’t even know where to begin. It’s so soggy with wrongness that my fingers are pruney.

So, let’s see here.

  1. They’ve decided that White Women are Most Oppressed.
  2. They know that White Women are at the bottom of the Oppression Heap, because when White Women marry Black men, it has something to do with Clarence Thomas or OJ Simpson.
  3. White Women are Most Oppressed because they bear the unsought burden of conforming to the beauty standard.
  4. White Women are Most Oppressed because they are privileged.
  5. White Women are Most Oppressed because they take the White Ladies Burden seriously.
  6. White Women are Most Oppressed because WOC don’t defer to their opinions and insight on racism.
  7. White Women are Most Oppressed because White Men work in cahoots with those jealous WOC, who, presumably due to blinding stupidity, can’t see that it’s all a plot by the Menz of the World, to opress, beat, rape, and generally fuck over Class Woman.

Did I get it right?

I feel sort of icky, now.

CM goes on:

I have notice an acceptable trend in social criticism. It seems that it is okay to say, “Sure white men are oppressing people through their [fill in the blank], however we must not forget to put those white women under the microscope with a closer eye. It seems insane. How is censuring white women accomplishing more than censuring the MAIN people in power. This trend is so prevalent it is beginning to appear that people (including POC, white men and many white women) do hate white women. It is the witch trials all over.

Oh, yeah. It’s exactly like the Witch Trials. In fact, I know that all sorts of people have wanted to burn me at the stake for being a pretty white lady that takes racism seriously. And, also, for having too many cats and not dying of the plague.

No, wait. I’m full of shit. That has, in fact, never happened.

Why… funnily enough, the only time I’ve ever encountered anyone that had decided that it was white women, and white women alone, that are to blame for all the world’s problems, would be those racist morons that go on and on about mail order brides.

Heart, of course, agrees fully with Moksha:

Exactly. It’s interesting, when you critique the workings of male power just in general, the response is often, “well, but let’s not look at what men actually do, we have to place everything in the larger context of imperialism and colonialism,” which, of course, we do have to. What gets left out is that females as females are a colonized people, subject to male imperialism, within every class of human beings. That’s important to talk about. And it also, of course, holds true for white women, but when it comes to us it’s as though we aren’t colonized. We haven’t been subject to male imperialism on top of whatever other imperialism.

See, now. That’s classic Heart. The bizarre shifting definitions, the insistence that women can’t do anything bad, as they are oppressed. I mean… does she actually know what “colonizing” or “imperialism” mean, or does she just like the way they sound?

Someone named “Amy’s Brain Today” pops up with this gem:

And the thing is, even when we are being “revolutionary,” resisting patriarchy, working against women’s oppression, we are still sneered at as “white feminists” whose work is supposedly elitist, trivial, imperialist, self-serving, complicit and assimiliationist. We can’t f*ing win.

Ya know, oddly enough, that doesn’t happen to all white feminists. It mainly happens to the white feminists that are elitist, that trivialize WOC, that support imperialism, white women who are self-serving, who are complicit with racism, and who assimilate and appropriate the experiences of women of color to back their own agendas. Or, more simply, “If you don’t want to be thought of as a racist asshat, try not being a racist asshat.”

Eventually, someone disagreed over in Heart’s comments, which led to the usual, “Oh, you must not be able to read” response from Heart.

One part of the discussion is the way the oppression of females as females is dismissed and trivialized when it is white women who are discussing that oppression. It looms in stark relief to people like chasingmoksha and I because of how we are treated when we discuss racism, as white women who are race traitors. This latter experience of being trivialized and insulted gives rise to a discussion of why it might be that our experiences are not valued or that we are resented for giving voice to them.

Ain’t that one a beauty? See, it’s statements like that one that just gall me when it comes to Heart. I mean… breaking this all down logistically, the assumptions are as follows:

  1. Heart is correct in all things, and cannot err, lest the world end.
  2. Heart has special insight into race relations because she says she is a “race traitor.” (AKA, “But, I have Black friends!”)
  3. Heart is Extra Oppressed for her Race Traitorism by whites and POC, alike, so she gets a shiny Badge.
  4. Heart, being Extra Oppressed, Extra Learned, and Extra Correct should be Heard and Acknowledged as a Special Source on Racial Issues, having insight beyond that of mere WOC.
  5. Anyone that denies Heart’s Extra Specialness, and refuses to acknowledge her Special White Lady Badge, is only doing so out of sexism, racism, and an pathological need to silence her.

It’s a self contained system, wherein the mystical reason “why” people blow her off is all systematic—she’s not resented because she’s an dogmatic, hypocritical egomaniac with a roving vocabulary and huge sense of her own right to possess for herself the experiences of women of color. Oh, no. It’s because everyone hates a “race traitor.”

She confirms all this:

More on topic for this thread, can a white woman married to a black man ever be “half way out” of oppression, either sexist or racist — no matter who she is? Doesn’t her marriage to a black man ensure that she will never be out at all, so far as sexism is concerned (given the treatment of white women who marry black men) and that she will also be immersed in the struggle against racism, by virtue of her marriage and its proximity and intimacies? Can she remain untouched by her husband’s struggles with racism? More importantly, can she know what those struggles are about, begin to understand and even feel them? Might it even be that she enters into them willingly, to experience them herself, because of love, commitment, devotion, friendship, loyalty? If the answer is yes, then what is the tremendous resistance to such women, talking about the racism which touches their husbands and them and their families? A racism that is always informed by sexism which is always informed by racism and on and on? What’s up with such an intensely adversarial response?

Gosh. The sheer blindness. First off, can you imagine her response if someone used this excuse to identify fully with Class Woman? She’d have a conniption fit.

Heart is totally, completely, and 100% full of shit. She doesn’t “talk about racism which touches on her husband’s experience.” She talks about herself, and how noble she is for enduring “racism” directed at herself, all in the name of love. And, that’s the difference. That’s where she gets the intensely adversarial response. It’s not that she talks about racism—it’s that she talks about how she is a victim of extra special racism that everyone should take a little time and consideration to acknowledge as sacred and set apart. Which is bullshit. It’s not because she’s a “race traitor” that I don’t buy it, it’s that she’s selling a load of crap.

She’s selling a feminine version of “White men are the only people it’s okay to discriminate against.” She might as well just bitch about the invisible PC police, while she’s at it.

I was raised in a bi-racial household. My mama is “race traitor,” too. Are some people assholes? Sure! Were us white ladies snubbed by “his people” sometimes? Yup. But, the brunt of the racism (as opposed to just rudeness) hits the people of color in my family. They are the ones that will have people balk at the “ethnic” nature of their names on resumes. They were the ones that get called “towel head” and “sand nigger.” They get the funny looks on the plane, and the double checking on the no-fly list. Not the Extra Special Pretty White Ladies. And, all the race-traitoring in the world won’t turn you into a honorary person of color.

tags: racism
2 March, 05:33 PM

  1. Gah. Race, easily transcended by a marriage certificate…Gender impenetrable to all transgressors…


    — SlyCivilian    Mar 2, 07:32 PM    #

  2. You forgot to add that CM is totally, completely, and 100% full of shit too.


    — Sarah    Mar 2, 10:04 PM    #

  3. If you check out my blog, on the post about that horrible AsianWeek article you’ll see what I think CM is using as one example of POC destroying her and her husband’s agency. It surrounded a few people confronting her on her privilege in the comments, where she felt comfortable expressing anti-Asian viewpoints because of the discrimination her [black] husband has experienced.


    — Sylvia    Mar 2, 11:46 PM    #

  4. “They know that White Women are at the bottom of the Oppression Heap, because when White Women marry Black men, it has something to do with Clarence Thomas or OJ Simpson. ”
    Because that makes TOTAL sense. Um, yeah. Because non white women have NOTHING to worry about, life for them is just a bed of roses…
    You know, I’m married to an Asian man, and I’m white…do I get the Special White Lady card too? Or is that only avaliable to the whiny, self-absorbed people?
    And seriously…does being married to a POC make you more aware of racism if you’re white? Yep. Does it make you an actual VICTIM of racism? Um, no, not so much. If it makes you feel sorry for yourself, like Heart…oh well, sucks to be you, but not really anyone else’s problem.
    Can you imagine actually being the “black husband” – does the man not have a fucking name? Is he even a person to her or just a walking, talking excuse for her to pat herself on the back?


    — britgirlsf    Mar 3, 01:50 AM    #

  5. Chasingmoksha creates problems with everyone she comes in contact over the internet. It’s her way or the highway. To be quite honest, she’s one crazy bitch.


    — Caroline    Mar 3, 07:13 AM    #

  6. And here I’ve been, vigilantly waiting for years for Heart and ilk to make and agree to a clear and concise statement that they believed white women are the most oppressed, ever. (I notice there’s no class mentioned yet as a qualifier, but Imma waitin’ for it) so I could shred it without them being able to twist the statement into something else, and you beat me to it. Bah humbug to you. Not suprised they used the “But I have a brother/sister/husband/whatever of insert-ethinicity-here card to do it with, but I am suprised they didn’t make more than a passing reference to other minority statuses (besides horizontal hostility in regards to race) and how they oppress ww. I spotted a few ‘minor’ things I have quibbles with in the post and the subsequent comments by individuals that I’d like to deconstruct in regards to their idea of race and oppression, but not before the dishes are done. The downside is I seem to be feeling particularly vicious today, so it’ll take a lot of revising to make sure I’m not mocking the ‘logical’ reasoning behind such a statement to horribly.

    You made an excellent critique, by the way. Thank you for pointing out the posts.


    — ArrogantWorm    Mar 3, 08:53 AM    #

  7. With Heart, it’s all about Heart. Every single thing turns around to her and her perception of the world.
    It’s sad, really, because she’s going to wake up one morning and realize it’s NOT all about Heart, and that’s going to be a jarring thing.


    — rootietoot    Mar 3, 04:31 PM    #

  8. Sly—yeah. Go fig, right?

    Sarah—At least CM is upfront about her shitty moments. Usually, she just declares that she’ll be racist if she wants to, and everyone else can just go jump off a bridge. Heart tries to coat her shit in gold and call it ornamental.


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 04:35 PM    #

  9. Sylvia—Oh, dear.

    Caroline—CM is bi-polar, last time I checked, and “crazy bitch” isn’t appropriate. I generally assume that she’s high-drama because she can’t help it. Doesn't mean that it's not annoying, just means that I wonder if it's something she can actually control?

    ArrogantWorm—all apologies for beating you to the punch.

    Rootie—I doubt it. I mean… she’s old enough that if the Jarring was going to happen, it would have occurred when her 15 minutes of Evangelic Fame were up. Instead she turned that into a story that was all about her and how much they just really hated her for being female...


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 04:40 PM    #

  10. Veronica, I am always wondering whether Heart is for real or not with all her bullshit. In a comment somewhere, I read that she (Heart) married her black husbands as political statements. No mention of love or anything. It’s disturbing to think she’s for real.

    CM is a racist that is always calling other people out on their racism but won’t take the time to really address her own because she’s too busy pointing out how she’s the victim. She cries about women oppressing other women and she is a good example of that herself. I have seen her attempt to silence other women many times, yet she doesn’t have a problem with this until she feels the shoe is on the other foot and other women are trying to silence her. Her refusal to look at life from any viewpoint but her own is evident in most of her arguments. It’s always about her and her alone and her experiences.

    I don’t believe her laundry story anyway that was discussed at Slyvia’s. If I went and paid for my comforter being cleaned and it was given back to me (after I paid for it) without a cover, I would demand a cover. If the owner told me to leave or he/she would call the cops, I would welcome the calling of the cops because I had done nothing wrong. She expects us to believe her husband just walked out in the rain and let HER take care of things with the dry cleaners at some later date. I don’t believe it for one minute.


    — sarah    Mar 3, 06:01 PM    #

  11. veronica did you email me asking for a link?

    email me again.


    — skippy    Mar 3, 06:24 PM    #

  12. Skippy, I’ve never emailed you. I left a comment in one of those amnesty day entries.. But… I can email if you want me to?


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 06:28 PM    #

  13. Sarah—yeah, Chasingmoksha’s racism when it comes to Asian people is just… fucking weird. You’d think that with all the racial enlightenment she likes to think she has, she’d get why it’s offensive. But, she’s usually busy being offended that anyone would call her on it. So, yeah… that sucks. And, anyone that honestly thinks white women are at the bottom of the heap is just totally blind to reality. I'm still sort of shocked she put that out there.

    And, Heart really said she married him for political reasons? How loopy is that shit?


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 06:36 PM    #

  14. Veronica, just go read the post you linked at CM’s, because Heart says again that she married her husband for political reasons in that one. That tells me right there that she is racist. He is something to be used to make her feel superior, instead of a human to be loved, like the white guy she could have married instead. But she’s gotten a hell of alot of mileage from that marriage.

    When my husband married me, did it give him the authority to speak to feminism or women’s issues? He married a woman! Now he can speak for women! Or did it give him the authority to speak to racism in Native American communities? He married a NA! Using their logic now he is uniquely qualified to speak to NA issues! Why can’t these dim bulbs see that their marrying black men does not give them any special insight into racism or the black community or men’s issues for that matter. They didn’t crawl into his skin. And white people who sleep with or marry POC can still be racist themselves. I’ve seen some white people with low self esteem marry outside their race to give them someone they view as lower to push around or because they don’t think they are worthy of white partners…I wonder if some of them call it “for political reasons”.

    If something racist happens to me I do tell my husband about it to vent, and perhaps he goes around talking about it with others, I really don’t know. So let’s say I tell him about the Asian lady at the grocery store who snubbed me; but don’t tell him about the nice Asian at the bank, or the helpful Asian teacher at the school, or the pleasant Asian at the bus stop…

    See where I am going with this? She is aware of the bad because it angered him, but he doesn’t tell her about the normal every day interactions. He may not have even made a mental note of them himself, because they are normal. We do tend to notice the things that cause strong feelings, like anger but gloss over and forget the normal expected interactions.


    — Donna    Mar 3, 07:06 PM    #

  15. Donna, thanks. I hadn’t checked back there to see where it all went after I wrote this.


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 07:14 PM    #

  16. Donna wrote: I’ve seen some white people with low self esteem marry outside their race to give them someone they view as lower to push around or because they don’t think they are worthy of white partners…I wonder if some of them call it “for political reasons”.

    I think you hit the nail on the head with this assessment.


    — sarah    Mar 3, 08:07 PM    #

  17. Veronica, here’s a portion of the comment from Heart over at CM’s. It’s almost too hard to read without wincing:

    ”...Of course I saw his race. I deliberately married him, too, as a political statement, in the same way both my exes married me, in part, as a political statement. When I shacked up with my first ex and had babies with him, he was a member of the Seattle Black Panther party and I was a political radical at the University of Washington. I chose this life of resistance to racism. I could have married any number of white guys and had a passel of lily white babies. Did I do that? Hell no. I married black guys and had a passel of biracial babies. This is something everybody wants to not think about, and I realize there are many reasons for this, I realize that many poc believe black men marrying white women is wrong politically, still and all, for those of us who, as white women, can access white privilege, as I could have—I grew up middle class white, the daughter of a very prominent white attorney—to reject white privilege by marrying out of our race is still to reject white privilege by marrying out of our race. To rush right past that in an effort to arrange things in ways that feel more comfortable will not do. And wherever I’m around, it isn’t going to happen.”


    — sarah    Mar 3, 08:12 PM    #

  18. Wow, the Oppression Olympics takes place at so many locations that I can’t keep up. Whew!

    I’ve had African-American lovers: Does this make me black from the waist down? Is there a place where I can cash in on this? Dang.


    — The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Mar 3, 08:18 PM    #

  19. Sarah—Yeah. Um. Well, damn.

    Hedonist—I talked to BlackAmazon about this yesterday, and she said something to the effect of, “Race isn’t syphilis, you can’t get it from fucking.”


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 09:21 PM    #

  20. Veronica, you have some mother fucking nerve. I have never been diagnosed a bi-polar in all of my life. I have never had any psychiatric diagnosis other than once I had post partum depression. How in the hell do you take the liberty to diagnose me as bi-polar, do you have an MD? As an MD as you seen me as your patient?. And for your information, I have never said anything against Asians about their culture. I am anti- Asians discriminating against blacks. Get the story straight.

    And for whoever it was in the comment above who claimed Heart or I said that white women are the “most” oppressed or the “only” oppressed” or any other isolation of just being alone in this oppressive world is a liar.

    I really wish some of you could pull a thoughtful post out of your ass that did not ride on the coattail of another woman. Talk about drama and/or wanting drama.

    Sly don’t ever talk about or talk for anyone who is not exactly like you, okay. If so, it will make you a hypocrite.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:14 PM    #

  21. Sarah—Yeah. Um. Well, damn.

    Hedonist—I talked to BlackAmazon about this yesterday, and she said something to the effect of, “Race isn’t syphilis, you can’t get it from fucking.”

    Is that like talking to your “black friend?”


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:17 PM    #

  22. Donna wrote: I’ve seen some white people with low self esteem marry outside their race to give them someone they view as lower to push around or because they don’t think they are worthy of white partners…I wonder if some of them call it “for political reasons”.

    I think you hit the nail on the head with this assessment.

    — sarah

    So what is being said here? That black people are inferior to white people, because white people only marry black people when they have low self esteem? Great. Take the sheets off and reveal yourself please.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:20 PM    #

  23. Chasingmoksha, the bi-polar thing was a mistake on my part. I thought you’d talked about it at some point. I was mistaken. I must have mixed you up with someone else. Sorry about that.

    Yes, you have said racist shit about Asians. I have my facts straight on that part. Paint it however you please, but what you’ve said is still racist. And, having a Black husband doesn’t unmake your racism against Asians.

    If you can’t understand why what you’ve said is really fucked up, then there’s nothing I can do about it.

    And, no it’s not like talking to my Black friend. It’s about not stealing someone else’s quotes. Plagiarism is a bad thing.

    And as for other people drama mongering, you're kidding, right?


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 10:27 PM    #

  24. Quit being a dumbass. I said that about racists who marry outside their race, they obviously aren’t going to think that POC are superior.

    Besides we have all recently learned that whites only marry blacks for political reasons, not because they might be worth loving.

    Your a pro at twisting words and reading only what you want to read, but I’ll give it a go too…


    — Donna    Mar 3, 10:32 PM    #

  25. Veronica, in this thread, there has been disablism. You implied that I had a diagnosis that I did not and with that implication you made it as if there was a problem with those kind of people.

    There has been sexism. Crazy bitch was not checked by you or others.

    You did in fact employ BA as a “black friend” type situation.

    I CHALLENGE you to find where I have said anything that that is racist against Asians. It is not racists to call them out on their racism. I have never said they were dumb, inferior, stink, ugly, or any of the other signifiers that racists use.

    Oh and there is RACISM in the comment section here. It is implied that a white woman would marry a black man because she has low self esteem, in other words she is marrying beneath her. That is racist! And you did not check that racist remark. You enabled that racist remark.

    Also whoever questions the dry cleaning incident can kiss my ass. I don’t need to lie to make a point. If I was that desperate I would create a false screen name and pretend to be someone else, you know how some of you do that.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:34 PM    #

  26. Is this the best you can do?


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 10:40 PM    #

  27. Quit being a dumbass. I said that about racists who marry outside their race, they obviously aren’t going to think that POC are superior.

    Besides we have all recently learned that whites only marry blacks for political reasons, not because they might be worth loving.

    Your a pro at twisting words and reading only what you want to read, but I’ll give it a go too…

    Don’t split hairs now Donna. Whether the white person is a racist or not, you made the implication that low self esteem is necessary to marry black. In other words black is inferior. The real racism is coming out now.

    Now, whites “ONLY” marry blacks for political reasons. Now Heart represents ALL whites. Heart never said she did not love her husband. You are implying because she felt like she gain something politically that she had no love for him. Of course you would think that because you don’t think well of white women who marry black men, because those white women must have low self esteem.

    I don’t twist words. I read. I study Literature, it is my trade.

    If white women who marry black men have low self esteem, what are woc who marry white men? Hyper esteem? Which would mean what, that you think white men are superior to moc.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:43 PM    #

  28. Veronica, don’t try to deflect because your enabling racism has been called out. It is what you face when you put your finger in something where you were not invited. Talk about white woman drama. Why couldn’t you comment where the topic was being discussed? You had to bring it here so you could be the white woman savior, center of the party, etc etc.

    Well, don’t mind me, I am done with this KKK rally you got going on.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:45 PM    #

  29. I’m just waiting for you to wear yourself out.

    You two came up with this big Theory of How Oppressed the White Ladies Are. So… ya know… keep flailing around, without addressing that. I can wait.

    Edit to add--Oh. And, I will never comment at Womensspace because Heart butchers comments.


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 10:51 PM    #

  30. Please forgive me, I have one more thing. My username is not MOKSHA. The arrogance in shortening my name is astounding. Moksha is a state that I would never presume to ever reach, not in this lifetime or perhaps the next thousand. Slave master’s wives took the liberty of changing slave names in order to suit her own tongue. It is a very typical white entitlement, if they cannot pronounce a name or remember a name they just call the person whatever the want. I am so glad to know there are plenty of white people in the blogosphere keeping up the whiteness of entitlement.

    Veronica, you really need to learn about the theory of absolutes. “All, only, the only one, no one else, etc.” You really do.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 3, 10:55 PM    #

  31. Oh, you mean like you just referred to Sly Civilian as “Sly?” You evil Slave Mistress, you.


    — Veronica    Mar 3, 10:57 PM    #

  32. Are you flunking out of college then? Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired if you aren’t deliberately twisting what I said. Because I said nothing about blacks, I made the statement about POC in general. Go ahead, twist that to mean that I think that whites really are superior and Aryan Nation has it right!

    (Psst, for the rest of you. I personally know people who have married Native Americans for the reasons I gave. You could tell because they not only treated their spouse like shit but the rest of us too. But don’t clue CM in, she’s enjoying the fantasy she is creating in her head. I bet there are white racists who marry blacks for that reason too. In fact I was watching a program and a white guy murdered his black wife and using a little misdirection said to the cops, “I bet it was ‘her kind’ that had to do with her disappearance.” I remember that “her kind” specifically. But don’t tell CM about this, she thinks no one racist would ever marry a black person. Remember we do not want to bust her bubble! And if even one person marries a POC because they think that person is beneath them, well it will blow her mind!)


    — Donna    Mar 3, 11:01 PM    #

  33. Oh, you mean like you just referred to Sly Civilian as “Sly?” You evil Slave Mistress, you.

    She won’t get this.


    — sarah    Mar 3, 11:11 PM    #

  34. Okay enough. She does not use me as her black friend . We were in deed talking about it. She likes my quote, we talk about this type of thing a lot.

    BECAUSE OF MY PERSONA L HERITAGE!

    And yeah I’m fucking offended at the laundromat cracks you made at sylvias.

    My last few protests and struggles were filled with Asian AMericans who protested .

    I have had experiences with peopel who’ve been good and bad in all races.

    I am thinking somehow the white woman is hated by ALL including white men.- There you said WHITE OWMEN centeringw hite women as hated by all you don’t go on to saywhy or how but jsut taht when you marry black men it comes out

    The FUCK?

    And you garuntee you’ll be frozen out because of tehe t?

    WELL YEAH . WHen people applaud people being discriminatory cause you have a prejudice on this gender ?

    You wnat to be accepted and non quetsioned as a ” a race traitor” but its okay for you to not even extend teh mutability of gender to someone else?

    And youll cmoan about shunning but clap when a transgender person is garunteed to be discriminated for teh rest of her damn life in Canada

    WHy not comment at HEart’s cause oh ID on’t know everytime me or BInt shows up the comments mysteriously close down? She shuts down voices of color but thats okay

    And personally why is this offensive.

    BEcause I’m mixed ethnicity and do you knwo how thsi shit sounds every fucking time some says I knwo cause i Married or I had

    NO YOU FUCKING DON”T

    YOu may be teh wife of or the mother of

    BUt you arent US.

    NO matter how much yous ya you are you;re not

    and all you anecdotes about privilege and how you stick up for your husband or kids only serve to further illustrate how little the life experience would touch you and does.

    The people you love are loveable and worthy and not fucking mascots.

    You want to go aroudn telling me, sylvia and others how much we should learn and honor you for loving YOUR FAMILIES

    cause the look like us ?

    or how your not being accepted for doing teh work when teh o work seems to be confined to exclusionary tactics.

    AND HAVE THE GALL TO QUESTION HOW BFP DECIDES TO RUN A CARNIVAL

    only to focus on OF COURSE the clueless white people?

    VEronica implied SHIT. HEart and you go on and on about teh important working and politics of being with your loved ones like we shoudl kow tow to it.

    I have interracia l family who would never once use my existance to validate their work or being

    and you’re twisting every word you can find to make everyone a racist liek you’re the only antiracist talking.

    Not to mention I personally don’t appreciate you haveing the bold face gall to insinuate teh only reason veronica would quote me is to trump you with ablack frien d as if SYlvai isnt here talking to


    — BlackAmazon    Mar 3, 11:29 PM    #

  35. “I have interracial family who would never once use my existance to validate their work or being”

    This is one of the biggest problems I am having with these “race traitors”. It’s all about how we should be grateful and praise them for their political gesture of marriage. It reeks of the savior mentality we are seeing so often amongst the liberal “anti-racist” whites.

    The center is still white people and how they will direct the discussion of race instead of letting POC deal with it. Instead of asking how to be an ally and asking what we need, they think they can tell us and marginalize us and call it anti-racism.


    — Donna    Mar 4, 12:08 AM    #

  36. CM, you and Heart have repeatedly used your marriage to men of color as “get out of racism free” cards. That’s what pisses people off and not just women of color.

    What bothers me is that you tend to use your marriage as an excuse to attack women of color including, but not exlusive to, Brownfemipower, Black Amazon and Donna.

    You have every right to do this and I have no urge to censor you. In fact, the more you spew such nonsense, the more unlikely it is that anyone will take you seriously.

    I’d love to hear about your husband and Heart’s husband and the racism they’ve experienced. We could all learn a lot about that. If you would focus on them, a lot of us would listen.

    The problem is, you don’t choose to focus on them. You don’t even choose to focus on your mixed-race children. Instead, you keep trying to divert the focus onto yourselves.

    Which seems strange to me. Because you claim to understand racism and how it damages people of color. But the very next thing you choose to do is to return the focus onto yourselves.

    It ’s just too weird to comprehend.


    — ravenmn    Mar 4, 12:45 AM    #

  37. Ravenmn, are we going to start this inferring mess again? I challenge you to find where I have ever attacked Black Amazon or Brown Femi Power. Come on, find it!

    What? By saying Veronica pulled the “black friend” stunt is some kind of transference that becomes an attack on Black Amazon? Please. I have no reason to attack Black Amazon.

    I guess if I really wanted to, I could pull a page out of some of your books [own if you want to] and comment under a pseudo name and keep my first pseudo name all nice and pure.

    And a far as Donna. Again what is the attack? That I called her out on her white conditioned racism? Actually I think it was Sarah’s comment that I commented on because she seconded the motion. So Donna and Sarah through Donna can imply that black men are inferior and when I call them on it, it is an attack. Suddenly when Donna sees her error she draws back and pretends like she was possibly talking about Native Americans (her subject expertise) however its implication was blacks because it was in talking about Heart and me that she made the racist remark. Heart, nor me have ever said we were married to any other MOC but black. Her remark was racist. But no because she is part of the party line that never deviants from let’s keep “our dirt under the rug” school, she is not checked on that. Funny how she accused me of twisting words with her famous ability to infer with absolutes, “all, only, no one else.” FYI Donna threw me under the bus. You damn Skippy I am not going to remain loyal to someone who so easily kicks me in the teeth. And for what, because I had my own thoughts that I was working through? I thought it was all about being who you are and all that jazz. She can be racist against black men, but let me complain that I have seen “some” Asians discriminate against my husband and have heard his stories and we must grab the torches and pitchforks and doubt my story to boot.

    Black Amazon I guess it is okay for Veronica to say that you said something but I cannot say that my husband said something. Yeah, right. I get it now. For sure. Thanks for the love, I guess our relationship was a one way street.

    And as far as Sly’s name. DUH!!!! A proper abbreviation/short hand calls for the beginning of a word or name to be shortened, especially if it does not change the meaning. For example, I can be Chas or even Chasing because it is the beginning, however, Moksha alone applies/suggests a whole nother meaning. The word does mean something very significant you know, something that I will not presume to be.

    I really am through with this blog now, I will delink and never come back, you can BELIEVE THAT! I am sure I gave yall enough to rally around and keep your stance that those evil white women are out to get yall and shit. So much love to most of yall but not all.


    — chasingmoksha    Mar 4, 01:35 AM    #

  38. help, help! i’m being oppressed!

    you’re being obtuse if you think that “civilian” isn’t part of the handle. it’s a deliberate nod to h. bhabha, and just saying “sly” doesn’t get that. but i don’t care because…

    there are a lot of reasons why i don’t care.

    i could write a novella here, about how reacting to be incorrectly associated with a mental health issues like it’s the fucking plague is disablism too…but i’ll leave it be.

    And as a parting shot, I was writing about someone exactly like me…i’m no base hypocrite. I have a race, and i have a gender. Personal experience all the way.


    — SlyCivilian    Mar 4, 02:00 AM    #

  39. Spinning, spinning, spinning.

    You dizzy, yet?

    Running around in circles looking for anything to take attention off of the stunt you pulled in saying that white men and WOC were in cahoots to oppress all the pretty put-upon white ladies?

    ‘Cause, you can call me names all day. And, you can come up with stupid arguments about usernames. You can get upset with honest mistakes, which were admitted to and apologized for concerning your mental health. You can call Donna racist. You can call me a Klan leader, though… it’s one oddly diverse rally I’m hosting here.

    You can do that all day long. Fine by me.

    But, none of those things change what you said to prompt this post.


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 02:03 AM    #

  40. Good lord what an asshat. Unfortunately for the person pretending she is never coming back but who of course will, since it’s all about her and gosh how could she pass up a post that’s talking ALL ABOUT HER! Anyway, unfortunately for her all of you can read my actual comments at 14. I said that I have “seen” this, as in witnessed it myself. What would I be witnessing on a reservation do you suppose, black/white marriages, or “my expertise” NA/white marriages?

    You are the only one INFERRING that I meant something else. You are the only one saying that I meant ALL whites marry POC for racist reasons, instead of the SOME that I said. I am not the only one who notices how you twist other people’s words to make yourself look better and POC look worse. Want me to direct everyone to the thread at B|L so they can see that Donna Darko NEVER once said that you should put your husbands on head on a stick like you accused her at my place, and that you are the one who actually said it? How about everyone go over to see if AradhanaD thinks you are twisting her words, she has a post up about that too. How about we get Kai over here and ask him if you twisted what happened at my place between you and him? Not to mention all of it on display right here. YOU ARE THE ONE PROJECTING YOUR DEFICIENCIES ON OTHERS.


    — Donna    Mar 4, 02:06 AM    #

  41. help, help! i’m being oppressed!

    Yeah, who knew that all those people that call me “Ronnie” are actually engaging in Plantation Mistressing!


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 02:14 AM    #

  42. CM is as nutty as a fruitcake.
    Look, see I shortened your name in the officially approved way! I’ll even call you Chas if you like!
    None of which changes the fact that you’re an idiot. And the fact that you’re running around accusing other people of racism…priceless, really.


    — britgirlsf    Mar 4, 03:38 AM    #
  43. Removed because Caroline didn't listen the first time I said "crazy bitch isn't appropriate."
    — Caroline    Mar 4, 06:03 AM    #

  44. And an item that I can’t forget to mention is my deepest disappointment at heart’s horizontal dismissal of radical WOCs during the twisty thing. NO ONE even bother to listen to the WOCs. Apparently they must be novices at being being racially depressed and thankfully white ‘race traitors’ have suffered on their behalf in order to be able to explain the complexities racism to WOC. Goddess, white race traitors are so benevolent.

    Me, I’m sort of ignorant and dumb… I do my best to listen WOCs as I have this naive belief that I can learn from them in ways that may help make this planet a better plae for everyone to live on. But like I said, I’m not very smart.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 06:19 AM    #

  45. “I guess if I really wanted to, I could pull a page out of some of your books [own if you want to] and comment under a pseudo name and keep my first pseudo name all nice and pure. ”

    What? You accuse me of posting under two names?

    Damn, now I want to know who this other person is, cause it’s somebody I ought to be reading!

    Please, CM, let me own it, I’m just dying to own my evil on this one. Name my other persona. I’ve got to find my twin!


    — ravenmn    Mar 4, 07:23 AM    #

  46. Jeebus, could folk rant more succinctly? Cause I’m just blipping over the really long ones, which I kinda figure defeats the purposes of the people writing them.

    Because the Internet is really about ME. ME ME ME ME. I demand that you all make my blogging experience more pleasurable!

    *

    *

    I’m WAAAIIIITING!!!!

    *

    *


    — The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Mar 4, 08:47 AM    #

  47. I’ve just discovered this. It’s better high drama than reality TV or even Survivor.

    It’s a wonderful display case for the natural superiority and essential goodness of vagina-born-vaginas.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 09:26 AM    #

  48. is randomly upset for no reason How come I don’t get a superspecial black person badge for fucking white men? Also, many people with mental illnesses are nice and calm. Not me, though*

    *I’m prone to anxiety. This is very convinent(sp?) as I can ‘treat’ my illness by laying the fuck down.


    — shannon    Mar 4, 09:55 AM    #

  49. Readers Digest Condensed Version:

    1. Hating on people for the amount of melanin in their skin is racist.

    2. Fetishizing people for the amount of melanin in their skin is EQUALLY racist, though the fetishizers in question often don’t see how this can be the case.

    2. Martyrs and narcissists are reeeaaaly, reeeally irritating.


    — The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Mar 4, 09:56 AM    #

  50. Ravenmn wrote:”The problem is, you don’t choose to focus on them. You don’t even choose to focus on your mixed-race children. Instead, you keep trying to divert the focus onto yourselves.”

    Yes, the stories ultimately revolve around how she has to come in as the white savior woman. (At the dry cleaners) she swoops in and saves the day and gets things done the right way, reinforcing her role as a privileged white woman and the story of her husband being mistreated at the dry cleaners (if this really happened) is left on the sidelines somewhere unresolved. How is retelling that scenario helping anyone?


    — sarah    Mar 4, 11:16 AM    #

  51. I do not understand Heart’s desire to be held up as some sort of goddess for marrying black men and having biracial children. She implies that it was the hard choice to make, that the easy choice would be to marry a white man and have white children but she did us all a favor and married black men instead. I don’t understand this at all. She’s such a martyr.

    Same with CM. CM will try to silence anyone who doesn’t agree with her. She doens’t save her vicious attacks for a certain group of people. Anyone who doesn’t agree will suffice.


    — sarah    Mar 4, 11:55 AM    #

  52. Caroline, watch it. There are probably readers and commenters here who do have mental illness (or loved ones who do) and it doesn’t make them unreasoning or “crazy”. Some of the most creative and successful people throughout history have had mental illnesses, being able to think in a different way can have advantages. So don’t equate that with selfish egotistical sociopaths.


    — Donna    Mar 4, 12:00 PM    #

  53. I’ll be the first to admit it: I’m crazy.

    I still want to cash in on this black-from-the-waist-down “affliction” that’s spozed to rate me oppression points. Where do I sign up? What’s my discount?

    BlackAmazon says it can’t happen but obviously this is some kind of new sexually-transmitted virus going around that results in oppression via association, and I want in on the action, damn it! I want to be able to whine about my sufferin black oppression without actually, y’know, BEING black. Kewl.


    — The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Mar 4, 12:10 PM    #

  54. CM is running around saying that this whole discussion boils down to “Big girl envy,” she, being the big girl, I guess, and all of us are envious of her.

    I’m totally buying that theory, how about you?


    — sarah    Mar 4, 12:56 PM    #

  55. OKAY! New game! Wait . . . erhm, I’m bigger!!! Yeah, I’m the biggest, I WIN!

    (Hey, how could anyone on the internet know for sure who’s bigger than whom? Oh, nevermind. I still win. My head’s the biggest.)


    — The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker    Mar 4, 01:02 PM    #

  56. veronica says:
    “Gosh. The sheer blindness. First off, can you imagine her response if someone used this excuse to identify fully with Class Woman? She’d have a conniption fit.”

    i love you. i’ve been trying to identify what it is that never felt right to me on this. you’ve removed that thorn from my brain. i am forever in your debt.

    the hedonistic pleasureseeker says:
    “BlackAmazon says it can’t happen but obviously this is some kind of new sexually-transmitted virus going around that results in oppression via association, and I want in on the action, damn it!”

    i have now identified exactly why i am so screwed up. i was born a white, jewish, transperson, married to a white, jewish woman for 12 years, divorced, had poc, catholic, trans, men, women, and unidentified lovers, and now married to a catholic man. it appears that i’ve been oppressing myself all this time. help me, i’ve fallen into oppression and i can’t get up!


    — nexyjo    Mar 4, 01:26 PM    #
  57. Caroline, is there any particular reason you've got personal problems with her, or are you just trolling?
    — Caroline    Mar 4, 01:35 PM    #

  58. It was a one way street . Was beeing you liked me till I expressed an opinion that didn’t honor you.

    ANd you seek to end it and speak it because o fit.

    YOu don’t adress our critiques just how were being mean to YOU.

    WHats big girl envy?


    — BlackAmazon    Mar 4, 01:37 PM    #

  59. If they are so powerful…. This means new possibilities for leadership in the oppression olympics.

    OR

    Can they be omnipotent and win the oppression olympics at the same time? In the heartland, anything is possible.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 01:38 PM    #

  60. “YOu don’t adress our critiques just how were being mean to YOU.”

    BlackAmazon,

    We regret to inform you that in order that responding to your critiques requires substance or falling back on upon long standing feminist tradition. Unfortunately we have haven’t written it yet. As soon as we do, we’ll let you kknow and then we won’t criticize you for being mean any more, we will criticize your ignorance of the long standing feminist traditions.

    Thank you – we return you to your rapture


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 01:44 PM    #

  61. It’s more like black girl envy for those two. They are mad as hell that the black community never accepted them the way that they would have been if their husbands had married black girls. Only… this isn’t true.

    On the reservation my husband always has something to do. There are always men looking to see if he wants to go fishing or golfing, or just inviting him over for a meal or a beer. The women are glad to see him too. One night there was a dance at the hall and I was home sick. They stole him from me! My cousins and friends showed up to see if we were going and told me that I shouldn’t penalize him and make him sit around bored just because I’m sick and took him off to the dance without me! On my reservation, if you are liked you generally get a nickname. He has one, it means “ladder” in Maliseet because of his height 6’3”.

    I can tell you that he wouldn’t have acceptance if he ran around telling people, “I could have had it easy and married a white girl, but I saved ‘one of you’, you should respect me for that! You should let me tell you all about racism because I understand it better than you!”

    The whole idea that their husbands don’t deserve love, that marriage is only a matter of racial politics, and if they manage to squeak out the love, it’s a superhuman effort that they should be praised for; that is probably why they aren’t accepted.


    — Donna    Mar 4, 01:45 PM    #

  62. OKAY! New game! Wait . . . erhm, I’m bigger!!! Yeah, I’m the biggest, I WIN!

    Hey, Hedonist, my dad can beat up your dad!


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 02:03 PM    #

  63. CM is running around saying that this whole discussion boils down to “Big girl envy,” she, being the big girl, I guess, and all of us are envious of her.

    I’m totally buying that theory, how about you?

    Yeah, I saw that. It takes a real big girl to posit that “Don’t hate me because I’m bee-yoootiful!” is an exciting new “theory.”

    I'm so envious. I want to run around in an egotistical fog, misusing words and insisting that I have found the secrets to eternal salvation and a blameless existence, too! No fair!
    — Veronica    Mar 4, 02:13 PM    #

  64. Damn, this got long quick. There goes those ‘minor’ points I wanted to make. Ah well, never was the fastest.

    Donna said;
    The whole idea that their husbands don’t deserve love, that marriage is only a matter of racial politics, and if they manage to squeak out the love, it’s a superhuman effort that they should be praised for;

    That’s what I read from over there that made me physically gag. I would’ve wandered for a few paragraphs, but you put it so succinctly.

    Womenspace said;
    Can they be omnipotent and win the oppression olympics at the same time? In the heartland, anything is possible.

    Snerk. They’ll find a way, I’m sure. Between the envy because they’re s’posed to know all and the dislike because they’re white women, I’m not sure that they wouldn’t cancel each other and we’d pop out of existence. Not very realistic, but The Heartland doesn’t resemble more than a passing glance of reality in my eyes, anyway. And if it is, reality is awfully white. No, no racist issues going on there, pay no attention to that (wo)man behind the curtain…

    And I so totally ripped off L. Frank Baum.


    — ArrogantWorm    Mar 4, 03:05 PM    #

  65. There was a sincere note I wanted to write to Black Amazon. I was deeply touched by what you said earlier. To me it is a privilege to hear a WOC talk because it’s as if you loan me the lenses through which you view the world and as such your words are pretty precious to me.

    There are things that hurt and mortify me deeply, in fact I am so hurt that I have a hard time showing it. I used to be Heart’s friend for many years. She and I were central characters on the MS. Boards and I thought I was learning about race from her. I thought I was. I thought I was.

    I’m am a lesbian and in the lesbian culture that I’ve shared, WOC’s are held in very high regard, in fact they are very powerful. Although Heart talks like an old lesbian pro, she isn’t. In fact no one can quite figure if she’s a political lesbian or not. At any rate, she hasn’t been a lesbian if she if one for but a couple of years. However, she will gladly give anyone high powered lesbian lessons and lemonade and all you have to do is ask. When she’s on the lesbian stage, we do not hear much about the three husbands and eleven children. When she’s on the race stage we hear about her sacrifice and identification with Nichole Simpson and her bi-racial children. We don’t hear about the children but how much suffers for them. Come to think of it, Heart has gotten into huge fights with one of the two WOCs I am thinking of.

    I read with horror the twisty BS and Heart’s interaction with WOC’s and there was something going on in my body that really troubled me. SHE DID NOT LISTEN TO YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE. It screamed and it screamed so loud, it fucking hurt. She did not greet you as wise counsel or as if she had ever shared your tent. She greeted you as if you a problem to be solved while carrying out a political mission. You were not working together as minority women, you were women to be appeased but not listed to. You were not her peer or even someone to be trusted. She really didn’t bother to test the water to find trust or to establish common ground. Instead, she made references about having “no women at her back”. [I think she’s watched too many Viet Nam Movies]. BlackAmazon, if we are sisters, why do I need to have women at my back when I visit your house? Are we not ready to embrace each other with trust knowing that we are looking for a win-win solution so that your home is richer and mine too? In no way were WOCs embraced in that manner. As I watched her gloss over you I felt more hurt and my body can only hold so much BlackAmazon.

    As I watched….. I KNEW.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 03:48 PM    #

  66. I’m sorry, I will refrain from using comments that might offend others who do have legitimate mental health issues.

    As far as me having something personal against Moksha, not really other than she speaks for WOC when she really doesn’t know what she’s talking about. I, as a WOC know that the majority of WOC do not feel the way she claims us to feel regarding certain issues. She’s barked up the wrong tree for the last time as far as I’m concerned. She’s never willing to hear others opinions and only wants herself to be heard


    — Caroline    Mar 4, 03:49 PM    #

  67. What I find really creepy is the idea that CM believes she can speak for her husband, no matter what race he is. I’ve been with my partner for 22 years and I have never presumed to speak for him, nor does he speak for me.

    First, we have too much respect for each, and second, we continue to surprise each other.

    That attitude is just way too Ward and June for my comfort level.

    BTW, Veronica, “All the Oppressed Women of the World will weep Sisterly Tears of Uterine Sorrow” has been cracking me up all day long. You are way too funny!


    — ravenmn    Mar 4, 06:01 PM    #

  68. I’m envious of big i.e. tall girls. I wish I wasn’t so short. I can’t imagine being able to speak for poor people just because I tend to attract guys who don’t have any cash.


    — shannon    Mar 4, 06:24 PM    #

  69. So Heart is a lesbian as well?


    — sarah    Mar 4, 06:49 PM    #

  70. Removed because Heart's digging a hole just fine on her own; we don't need to add unsubstantiated rumors.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 06:57 PM    #

  71. “political” lesbian. which, put it on the resume right after “race traitor,” i guess.


    — belledame222    Mar 4, 06:57 PM    #

  72. I do believe that she’s married to a white dude named Rick.


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 07:17 PM    #

  73. RavenMN, what had me smirking all day was what WomansSpace said:
    “Can they be omnipotent and win the oppression olympics at the same time? In the heartland, anything is possible.”

    I actually laughed out loud when I read it because I could hear it in a tv voice over…”In the heartland, anything is possible.”

    Caroline, I was thinking the same thing. It’s impossible speaking for another person, even one you are close to like a spouse. Unless you are joined at the hip, you are still only aware of what he or she wants you to be aware of. Even with the racist things that have happened to me, my husband only knows the extremes. If I feel like there might have been a slight or snub and I’m not sure if it’s due to my race or even if I am sure but it’s a minor incident, like a look, or turning away from me, I might not mention it to him. Unless he knows all the incidents and all the times when nothing happens or something pleasant happens he can’t know how it feels to be me. I’ve only had pleasant or neutral exchanges with Asians, but if something bad happened tomorrow I would tell my husband. It’s possible since I never told him about the hundreds of pleasant or neutral exchanges he might jump to the conclusion that Asians are racist by the one incident, or that I feel negatively about them because that is the only incident he knows about. He would be wrong.


    — Donna    Mar 4, 08:09 PM    #

  74. “CM is running around saying that this whole discussion boils down to “Big girl envy,” she, being the big girl, I guess, and all of us are envious of her.

    I’m totally buying that theory, how about you?
    ”
    Um, yeah, because our society heaps so many lovely rewards on big girls EVERYONE envies the. Yep, that must be it.
    You have to admit, as annoying as narcissists can be they do provide the rest of us with hours of amusement free of charge.
    Or, as Donna said…
    “The whole idea that their husbands don’t deserve love, that marriage is only a matter of racial politics, and if they manage to squeak out the love, it’s a superhuman effort that they should be praised for; that is probably why they aren’t accepted.”
    Yep, that attitude must make Heart and CM a big hit with the in-laws.


    — britgirlsf    Mar 4, 08:12 PM    #

  75. Certainly she was a few years ago and Rick used to appear on the Ms boards with her.

    I don’t go out of my way to follow the Heart soaps, but we’ve heard very little from the “I’m married to Rick” stage for the last couple of years. That would be less than convenient to the *edited* hot and cold running Lesbian stage and light show because were it anywhere but Heartland, these stages would have some mutual exclusivity.

    But here’s the good news. In Heartland memory is very selective. We can remember the misdeeds of an adversary forever, and totally forget the position we took last week, because consistency is a bear when we do wild political gyrations. Memory with these properties keeps the heartland chorus effevescent, smiling, open minded and willing to examine fresh new concepts now matter what stage Heart is on this week or what long standing feminist tradition is being created. :)


    — WomansSpace    Mar 4, 08:17 PM    #

  76. britgirlsf—I think they are trying to imply that they are big, grow-up women and we are mere little girls. It's kind of like when you're in the 7th grade, "Omigod! she's so totally immature! She doesn't even need a bra, yet!"

    Also, it was said that Donna and I are obsessed and jealous, which, I swear, they stole from Mean Girls. They being such mature, grown-up ladies.


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 09:57 PM    #

  77. “hot and cold running Lesbian stage and light show”

    HA! She is the Mighty Oz. Don’t look behind the curtain.


    — Veronica    Mar 4, 10:01 PM    #

  78. Also, it was said that Donna and I are obsessed and jealous, which, I swear, they stole from Mean Girls. They being such mature, grown-up ladies.

    — Veronica Mar 4, 08:57 PM #

    Yes, I saw that comment. CM also insists that we’ve been racist by saying that the only reason a white woman would marry a black man is if the white woman has low self-esteem. No one said that at all, she twisted someone else’s words. And yet CM doesn’t take issue with Heart who makes the proclamation that she married black men and had children with black men as a political statement. How racist is it to look at a person, see his color and think to yourself that you’ll go ahead and marry him because of his color because it will benefit your political agenda in some manner? I wonder if her husbands knew this about her.

    And now I am learning that Heart is also a lesbian. Is that a political statement as well? Is she using everyone as political statements so that she can be an self proclaimed authority on everything because that’s what it looks like to me.


    — sarah    Mar 4, 10:41 PM    #

  79. I want to clear up one minor issue: I wrote the following:
    ——-

    CM: “I guess if I really wanted to, I could pull a page out of some of your books [own if you want to] and comment under a pseudo name and keep my first pseudo name all nice and pure. ”

    ME: What? You accuse me of posting under two names?
    ———
    I attempted to post at CMs place. My post did not go through but she did respond to me via e-mail.

    I was wrong to believe CM was attacking me specifically in her accusation. I apologize for making that assumption.


    — ravenmn    Mar 4, 11:03 PM    #

  80. Hummm, she spoke bad things about Asians, did she? I’m rather Asian. Crank is very Asian….perhaps I’ll go read and see if I’m offended…

    smirk.


    — RenegadeEvolution    Mar 4, 11:50 PM    #

  81. yep, i was offended.


    — RenegadeEvolution    Mar 5, 01:02 AM    #

  82. I followed the links and started to read CM’s blog, but it made my eyes bleed. Fortunately, I came back here where there are people who make sense, and the bleeding stopped. For now.


    — plain(s) feminist    Mar 5, 01:18 AM    #

  83. okay, having finally read more of this (stopping now and then to replace the ol’ eyeballs), i think i can summarize the main cause of Heart’s angst thusly:

    “It is so NOT MY FAULT that I totally alienated bfp, Yolanda, and am even as I bloviate hemorraghing yet more former supporters. It’s, um, um, um…(casts about wildly)...YEAH! THAT! Why do you hate white women so much??”


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 01:29 AM    #

  84. and, okay, waitaminute waitaminute. i just gotta say. her FORMER black husband who was ABUSIVE, neh? and, I thought she doesn’t trust any men anywhere anyhow? soooo…from whence does all this it’s a special, intimate, blahblah relationship hooha come from all of a sudden? i mean: it’s a MAY-UN.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 01:44 AM    #

  85. Oh fer—wow. This is a big subject. I should read it all before commenting but I must ask : The respect she seems to expect from POCs for her Beautiful Sacrifices? Would she give this same respect to a man who made Beautiful Sacrifices in attempts in understanding/transcending sexism, etc?

    Going to read …


    — Kim    Mar 5, 08:41 AM    #

  86. And: I might get my ass flamed off for this but: every fucking time I dare to go to Heart’s site, she’s got all these pics up of Middle Eastern women. She’s all “GLOBAL” with her feminism, isn’t she? I’m tired of the idea that chosing to focus on sexism—FOCUS, not ignore other issues mind you—in my own country is lazy or even Americentric. I can DO something here, you know, I can actually do something instead of just writting letters or hand-wringing.
    Kinda like adopting a Chinese baby when we’ve got plenty unwanted children right here in the USA.
    Sorry.
    Off topic, but I feel better :)!
    Rant/


    — Kim    Mar 5, 08:46 AM    #

  87. Back. Read the Comments over at the two other blogs.
    While they make some good points about women/white women, it IS a pity party. I find it most interesting that some are complaining that as white women they are excluded from some feminist discussion/not allowed to speak on race, etc.
    I’m not sure any of them admitted to having white privilege—I couldn’t stomach anymore of that self-righteous, mutual masterbation suck-up fest there—but oh my goodness: WHERE have I heard before that because I am thin/have/had a ED, I just don’t GET IT, I’m privileged, I have no RIGHT to speak up—and, and, I “CHOSE” to be thin, unlike these poor white women who didn’t choose whiteness.

    Sorry for typos.
    I can’t take these types.
    Going back to read YOUR post again, V


    — Kim    Mar 5, 09:09 AM    #

  88. What I find problematic isn’t that they say that they have an unusual experience for white women, or that living in a family of color gives them a certain perspective and window into a community that many white women don’t have – that all makes sense to me.

    In fact, some white women have addressed this with a lot of sensitivity and caring, clearly as allies of WOC – Susan Straight and Jane Lazarre come to mind as examples of how this discussion could happen in such a way.

    But I read CM’s post in the context of having earlier (a few weeks ago) read a comment thread at Heart’s in which a WOC said something fairly innocuous (at first) to CM, and CM just went ballistic, so that the conversation was something like, WOC says, “I think that’s a little racist” and CM was “I’m being attacked, here on this blog that is generally a space for white women, and it’s understood that white people should educate white people about racism, so this WOC has no business telling me what I can and can’t say, and why can’t I join POC spaces?” and Heart DELETED the WOC’s comments.

    So when I read CM’s post, all I saw was, “Why can’t I speak for POC? Why can’t I make them shut up so that I can say whatever I want about race issues, including that POC are racist toward me?”


    — plain(s) feminist    Mar 5, 09:30 AM    #

  89. Wow…

    I am a white woman and i acknowledge my white privilege and that I benefit from the oppression of minorites even though I think that sucks.

    White women speaking on racism? Isn’t that like men speaking on sexism?

    I think my job when interacting with WOCs is to listen real hard. We may not always agree and I think it’s up to to always look at what I do when I disagree with a WOC. One thing I do do is to listen.

    CM:Why can’t I make them shut up so that I can say whatever I want about race issues, including that POC are racist toward me?”

    Right, just like white women should shut up and listen to men and believe them when they tell us WE are being sexist.

    This woman is “lightweight” in the extreme.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 09:51 AM    #

  90. Just to clarify – CM didn’t actually say that – that was me interpreting her comments. Sorry!


    — plain(s) feminist    Mar 5, 10:14 AM    #

  91. Thank you for that clarification, Plainsfeminist.

    Misquoting and misreading people seems to be a very dangerous thing that we do.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 11:15 AM    #

  92. Holy shit this thread BLEW UP!


    — Amber    Mar 5, 11:30 AM    #

  93. >Rootie—I doubt it. I mean… she’s old enough that if the Jarring was going to happen, it would have occurred when her 15 minutes of Evangelic Fame were up. Instead she turned that into a story that was all about her and how much they just really hated her for being female…>

    Yeah, I gotta agree with Veronica here. And if she crashes and burns with the radfem/cultfem thing, she’ll probably just move onto something else. Scientology, maybe, or New Age pop-psych, or something.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 11:31 AM    #

  94. from the ws thread:

    >These are made-up women you are talking about, these white women so privileged that sexism barely touches them. Women untouched by the oppressions of misogyny and sexism simply do not exist.>

    Poor oppressed imaginary Maggie Thatcher.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 11:41 AM    #

  95. >More on topic for this thread, can a white woman married to a black man ever be “half way out” of oppression, either sexist or racist — no matter who she is? Doesn’t her marriage to a black man ensure that she will never be out at all?>

    what, you mean even after you divorce him, marry a white dude and redefine yourself as a radical lesbian separatist? well, maybe, i suppose, if you NEVER FRIGGING SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

    jesus.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 11:44 AM    #

  96. “what, you mean even after you divorce him, marry a white dude and redefine yourself as a radical lesbian separatist? well, maybe, i suppose, if you NEVER FRIGGING SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

    Now, Now Now, that won’t get you into the oppression olympics.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 12:14 PM    #

  97. Well, hell. For the sake of clarity—no one got pissed off at CM for “talking about racism while white.” They got pissed off at her for “talking mad racist smack about Asian people while white.” And, while I didn’t know that when I wrote the entry, I was pretty sure something was off, as she refused to let anyone see what she was talking about. I was personally shocked and apalled by her assertion that WOC are working with The Man to keep the white women down. Because… that’s fucking stupid.

    As for Heart, well, hell, I don’t know where to start with that one. Let’s just say I have a problem with her ideology as a whole—there’s basically nothing she can’t turn into something wrong.


    — Veronica    Mar 5, 12:17 PM    #

  98. I can’t help but wonder how Heart’s and CM’s children feel about being trophies. I am sad for them.


    — rootietoot    Mar 5, 12:36 PM    #

  99. I’m late to this party, but , um, wow. I can’t believe what I’ve read the last hour or so. I have nothing to add that someone else hasn’t already said.

    Just wow.


    — Kevin    Mar 5, 01:05 PM    #

  100. I have something that hasn’t been said.
    First of all in the past Heart has done wonderful work for women.

    Also in the past she has observed that “men should be allowed to go off by themselves and do liberatory work because they develop ‘funny ideas’” In the last year, heart has become involved with cultural feminists and essentialists. She’s demonstrated that we women can lose our grounding too although it seems to be rarer for women than for men.

    Heart has always said, “I never write a woman off.” I would hope that people here extend her the same courtesy, recognizing that she has gone down a wrongful path after all she has deviated from radical feminism. She is not the devil, she’s just part of a fucked environment. She’s stepped into an incorrect ideology on stage and has received enormous applause from heartland’s essential one-syllable chorus. It’s a place where a sensible person at the top can lose their grounding. The person at the top is always vulnerable in ways that it’s hard to see.

    With these things in mind, criticism here was appropriate in my eyes. I hope that we don’t confuse NOW with “permanent” open to the possibility that heart can once again become regrounded and do constructive and loving work for the people of women.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 01:25 PM    #

  101. oopsie:

    ># chasingmoksha Says:
    March 3rd, 2007 at 6:22 am

    Yeah, roamaround. That’s one reason I am no longer married to black men! [/quote]

    Not all black men are the same, maybe the better wording could be that is why you are no longer married to men. Because I am here to tell you if my marriage fails, there will be no more marrying business with men of any color.

    # womensspace Says:
    March 3rd, 2007 at 6:50 am

    Yeah, I deleted that comment, chasingmoksha, because I can’t say what I would like to say in a paragraph, and I’m not sure I would say what I would like to say here, right now, in however many paragraphs, and what I said comes across wrong, which is to say, your point is very well taken.

    You’re right, it’s not black men who are the issue, it’s just men.

    Heart>


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 02:19 PM    #

  102. WomanSpace—I’d say that, yes, part of my problem with Heart is her audience. For whatever reason she offers shelter to hateful women that no one else will put up with—the kind that confused “advanced feminism” with “being an raging asshole.”

    I am not, and never have been a radical feminist. You’re not gonna get much love for the radical feminism out of me. You yourself were lamenting the intersectional analysis of oppression at plain(s)feminist, based on your love of radical feminism, and I thought you were Heart. I don’t think that she’d change her mind about the oppression of white women just by "purifying" her radical rhetoric. I'm not saying that radical feminism is inherently racist, though there's a really interesting conversation in that vein happening at bfp's. I'm saying that the "woman-centered" part of radical feminism is very handy if you want to build an argument based ignoring racism as a cause of oppression (Witchy-Woo is pretty frequently guilty of that, for example--though she's at least aware of it. She simply states that she chooses to believe that sexism is her main -ism.) Heart's problem isn’t that she has been ideologically corrupted—her problem is narcissism and pandering to her audience.


    — Veronica    Mar 5, 02:33 PM    #

  103. I am not, and never have been a radical feminist. You’re not gonna get much love for the radical feminism out of me, and you yourself were lamenting the intersectional analysis of oppression at plain(s)feminist, based on your love of radical feminism, and I thought you were Heart. I don’t think that she’d change her mind about the opression of white women just by purifying her radical rhetoric. Heart problem isn’t that she has been corrupted by cultural feminism—her problem is narcissism and pandering to her audience.

    Veronica,

    If I were looking for love I’d think thrice maybe eighteen time about being a radical feminist because one thing is for sure, we don’t get much love.

    Now then….

    I am a radical feminist.

    I am not Heart.

    I am an old second waver who has been around since the beginning of the second wave. Yes, you are correct, I do not think that multiple oppressions models help feminism because I myself do not see feminism as the arena for the oppression olympics.

    I agree with you that heart is narcissistic and please consider this for a moment. Heart has been able to keep that in check over the years because she’s been on public board and peer relationships have helped to ameloriate the narcissism. What is really dangerous to a narcisist is exactly the kind of environment that she has created here because there are no peer relationships and she’s in top and is in power. In that environment, she is unlikely to receive useable feedback on her behavior and thus i believe more things like we are seeing is very possible.

    But it doesn’t have to be that way.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 02:48 PM    #

  104. What is really dangerous to a narcisist is exactly the kind of environment that she has created here because there are no peer relationships and she’s in top and is in power.

    Oh, I totally agree with that. The dynamic over there is not good. That’s why this is all posted here—she edits what she doesn’t want to hear.


    — Veronica    Mar 5, 02:54 PM    #

  105. So does fucking AMP.

    You, plains and bfp are first I’ve seen who do not.

    I do like you and respect you. Unless you have really studied radical feminism and you may have, you won’t see much here on the net.

    You know there are meaning meaning to the word radical. When paired with feminism it means a to the roots analysis. Most people think it means EXTREME, so radical feminism also tends to pick up cognitively low functioning authoritarian personalities.

    These are the people who are comprising heart’s mono-sylable choir. Steadily over the years, we’ve been seeing heart dumb-down to match her audience. We also understand that important thing is AUDIENCE.

    To be honest the things that have disappointed me the most is the total willingness of that crew to pick up the masters tool and use them with glee and to adopt stances that hurt women. The hurts me through and through. As a radical feminist, I am deeply bothered by the reductivism (the language of dominance) and the lack of integrity as those are big hammers in the Master’s toolbelt.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 03:07 PM    #

  106. Eh. I don’t read or link to Amp. I don't know much about him. I always thought it was sort of weird that one of the biggest “feminist” blogs out there was run by a dude.


    — Veronica    Mar 5, 03:19 PM    #

  107. I couldn’t agree with you more. He’s very liberal feminist.

    As a “feminist” he is pro-porn and ran into financial and sold his URL… guess what, to Porn people who want to use his hit numbers for the promotion of porn. Although Amp took some measure to limit porn on his URL his site is definitely supporting porn.

    What we get from Amp is “a mayun’s view of feminism” and I am reminded of an old second wave phrase blacks said to whites –
    “People don’t get radicalized fighting other people’s battles.”

    Blacks were telling whites to get the out. Amp is never going to get radicalized re feminism ‘cause sista – it’s not in his face.


    — WomansSpace    Mar 5, 03:35 PM    #

  108. I do have to say that I have no problem with people getting together to whine and moan on the internet as CM and Heart have done in that thread. It’s good to let frustrations out and all that. It’s fun sometimes to get unreasonable and paint everyone who disagrees with you as a moron.

    What grates me is that Heart won’t own up to that. There’s this voice of fake concern about her opponent’s inability to understand just how perfect and unassailable she is.

    Like this from CM’s thread (linked above):

    “most white people should shut up and not talk about this because they say ignorant things when they open their mouths”. (emphasis added).

    It reminds me of how W keeps talking about “those politicians in Washington”. I want to say, “Hey, W! What’s your job and where do you live?”

    Du-uh!


    — Ravenmn    Mar 5, 04:52 PM    #

  109. shrug. I like Amp. I have him listed as a multi-themed blog, which is it.

    the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth over the prawn thing was yet another splendid example of Heart’s…Heartiness.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 05:11 PM    #

  110. >I do have to say that I have no problem with people getting together to whine and moan on the internet as CM and Heart have done in that thread. It’s good to let frustrations out and all that. It’s fun sometimes to get unreasonable and paint everyone who disagrees with you as a moron.

    What grates me is that Heart won’t own up to that. There’s this voice of fake concern about her opponent’s inability to understand just how perfect and unassailable she is.>

    yup.

    although, again, of course, what they’re moaning about, esp. in context of, well, everything, is pretty hard to stomach too. But, sure, moan away. As you say though: in their case it is the Righteous Moan of Justice; everyone else can just suck it up, yanno.


    — belledame222    Mar 5, 05:17 PM    #

  111. ““most white people should shut up and not talk about this because they say ignorant things when they open their mouths”. (emphasis added).”

    There is a major problem in heart’s form of “dialogue” which is actually monlogue.

    To consider a parallel if you’ve ever engaged an anti-abortionist, you may have noticed that attention is INSTANTLY shifted off of the fetal host (who is treated like in invisible feeding source) and onto an anthropomorphized fetus.

    Parallel with heart’s behavior:

    1.) Heart will instantly shift any trans discussion to gender as being the ONLY explanantion and with the implication is that it is a faux-experience because we girlies know know them boyz can’t really feel what we feel” At th